AGE of Accountability

I called BEEP TALK on Way Of The Master and asked a question about Age of Accountability. If you get a chance, click HERE and listen to the Pre-Show Show. Its basically the first 2 minutes of the show. Listen to the answer that Todd Friel gave me and let me know what you think.

If you can't or don't have time to listen to the show, give me your opinion on whether there is an AGE or LEVEL of accountability. What does the Bible mean when it says, "All have sinned..." and "There is only one way to Heaven...and that's through salvation in Christ'. Thanks a bunch!

If you wanna listen to it, click HERE and its the HOUR ONE. Again, its within the first 2 minutes or less of the show. Thanks!

Jewel wrote:

I called BEEP TALK on Way Of The Master and asked a question about Age of Accountability. If you get a chance, click HERE and listen to the Pre-Show Show. Its basically the first 2 minutes of the show. Listen to the answer that Todd Friel gave me and let me know what you think.

If you can't or don't have time to listen to the show, give me your opinion on whether there is an AGE or LEVEL of accountability. What does the Bible mean when it says, "All have sinned..." and "There is only one way to Heaven...and that's through salvation in Christ'. Thanks a bunch!

If you wanna listen to it, click HERE and its the HOUR ONE. Again, its within the first 2 minutes or less of the show. Thanks!

While all have sinned, and while we inherit our sinful nature from Adam, I think there is a level of accountability. I wouldn't dare put an age on it. Samuel was called at a very young age himself.

If you remember the story of David, when his son was deathly ill, he was praying and fasting. But, when his son died, he got up from where he was and ate. His servants questioned how he could just get up and eat and David said that there was no need for him to fast and pray any longer, He would see his son again.

I think as soon as a child can understand right from wrong, they need to be told of the consequences of sin. Of course, I wouldn't explain it to a 4 year old like I would a teenager, but I think there are ways to "train your child up in the ways of the Lord." This is why I made it a point in Sunday School to address the Ten Commandments, God's holiness, the penalty of sin, and the redeeming gospel just about every week.

Jewel wrote:

I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the idea that there are TWO ways into heaven. The Bible NEVER mentions that all babies will inherit eternal life. I don't even think it was insinuated. The Bible says that ALL have sinned. I look at my nephew and my godchildren and, even before they turn one, there are just as sinful as they wanna be. CUTE, but sinful. They are selfish, crying all hours of the night if they don't get attention. At 10 months they know right from wrong, with certain things. Children who die, die in their sins. And, the Bible teaches me that, unless you are born again, you will not inherit the kingdom...PERIOD. It doens't say, "Once you understand, then God will hold you accountable." Because then I should ask, how about a mentally challenged individual, who grows up to be 20 years old, but has the mental capacity of a 6 year old. Will they see Heaven?

The Bible also teaches that David would one day be reunited with his son that died.

If babies are destined for hell until they are born again, why would we fight so hard to stop abortion? Wouldn't they deserve to be killed and go to hell?

Regardless of whether or not babies can know something is wrong or not, what can they do to get right with God? They are helpless in this endeavor. They cannot respond in repentance and faith. They are developmentally unable to do so.

What about the children of believers? The Bible says that the children are sanctified through the parents. They are set apart. What happens when they die? What comfort would the parents have in their child's death, especially after a long illness in which they had to nurse the child? Imagine the guilt of the parents believing that if they had tried harder, prayed harder, spent more money on healthcare, etc., they could have saved their baby from hell.

We can't ignore the fact that David knew he'd see his son again. Where Scripture is silent or doesn't say much about a subject, it is unwise for us to make definitive pronouncements.

There is a great book by Craig R. Brown entitled "The Five Dilemmas of Calvinism" (Ligonier Ministries) that deals with 5 major misconceptions or "problem areas" that come up when speaking of the Reformed faith. He deals with this particular topic in one of the chapters. He gives several examples of God's special love and care for children. I have the book if you'd like to borrow it. Actually, he was on RC Sproul's "Renewing Your Mind" program back in November of last year. He and Dr. Sproul both agree that babies will be in heaven. RC Sproul and his wife personally suffered through 4 miscarriages, so the question is not just related to those who are actually born, but also for those who die in the womb.

Great topic... this is one my wife and I have wrestled with (being parents of one and another on the way)... a very near and dear to my heart topic. We've settled on not pursuing it and sticking with the answer Mike has given.... both Job and David talked of seeing their children in the life to come (though the age of Jobs children hasn't really been established in my mind). My inclination is to take that hard stand like Jewel does and say "well... i better get started on DAY ONE with presenting my lil baby with the gospel when january comes!!!!"... imagine that i'm clipping the U.Chord and presenting my child with the law at the same time "i know you've only been here a few seconds... but this is important son... something could happen to you on your way over to that table where they clean you up!".

lol

seriously tho. While the Bible is clear that Christ is the ONLY way, it also does speak of small children being in heaven... but what age IS the age of accountability? does my 4 year old have something to fear?

here's something interesting to toss into the discussion...

could the destination of a child under the age of accountability depend on the faith of their parents?...

1 Cor. 7:14
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.

just some food for thought

lj.

whoa.... that settles it for me.. i'mma have to dig into that one a little deeper.

just had this thought... so in going with the 1 corinthians script.... does that mean aborted children from the unsaved... or just children who are born to the unsaved who die.... they're going to hell?

Consider Jeremiah 19:4

The LORD is rebuking Israel for all the atrocious things they had done. One of which was sacrificing their children to the pagan gods. God refers to those sacrifices as "innocents"

Though babies are born with the inherited Adamic nature and are therefore inclined toward evil, they are not guilty of personal, willful sin against God.

Even more elementary to the topic is that salvation is by grace alone. Even the faith we are given is accomplished by God's grace. Salvation is not based upon our decision, but by the grace of God.

For those who are able to understand right from wrong, good from evil, etc., they are commanded to repent and believe. Could God save men through faith and it be totally of grace? Of course. We believe that much. But, if God so chose to save all babies, regardless of who their parents are, is the salvation of those babies still by grace alone? Certainly.

Consider David's story again. Remember that David had four other sons besides the one who died as an infant. When they died, his reaction was much different. He was deeply sorrowed with their deaths. He knew Absalom was not in heaven, and even said that he wished it was him who had died in Absalom's place. But, with the baby, he got up, washed and put on new clothes and ate. He knew where he himself was going, as he stated in Psalm 23 "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever." Where he was going, he knew he'd see his son there.

I think the best answer is to say, "I don't know since the bible doesn't specifically address the issue".

The bible does address who can be saved and that's whom God has chosen. So I have no problem in believing Babies like adults are chosen to be saved. I personally believe God does show favor to his elect by choosing to save their kids who have died as an infant.

Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."


We have an example in Luke where John was saved from the womb. So here we can kind of see a case against the age of accountability. It's was by the Sovereign Will of God to save this baby from the womb.

Luk 1:15 "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb.


Good topic!

Sorry!!! I was the one who started the topic and haven't responded to everyone else's response. hee hee.

I understand what you guys are saying. I'm still wrestling with the idea (especially since David and Jeremiah came before the coming of Christ - so everyone, including David, went to Hell, until the death of Jesus Christ)...however, I am willing to believe, for right now, that babies are saved by their parents.

Thx you guys.

Jewel wrote:

Sorry!!! I was the one who started the topic and haven't responded to everyone else's response. hee hee.

I understand what you guys are saying. I'm still wrestling with the idea (especially since David and Jeremiah came before the coming of Christ - so everyone, including David, went to Hell, until the death of Jesus Christ)...however, I am willing to believe, for right now, that babies are saved by their parents.

Thx you guys.

Cool. Thanks for coming back to us...lol.

But, don't confuse Sheol with the Hell we hear talked about in a negative sense. Sheol was the place believers in the promises of God (the coming Messiah) would go. It was also known as Abraham's bosom. Believer's in God were not tormented in any way. They just had to wait until they were taken into heaven.

I don't believe babies are saved by their parents, however. I believe that all babies are saved from conscious torment in hell. 5 and 6 year olds? Well, I'm not as sure about them. Remind me to get that book to you. It lays out the idea better than I can right now.

this is the problem you adamic baby lovers will fall into every time. the age of accountability. LOL! I say it plenty. I don't think it's our place to read things in.. the scripture NEVER EVER.. not remotely or indirectly, refers to any such teaching as the age of accountability.

Looking at romans 9.. God clearly says "one i hated.. one i loved..".. essentially.. one i elected.. the other i did not. where do you think the one he hated would have ended up had he not made it?

I think the best thing to say about this is "It's in God's hands". The Bible teaches that we're BORN into sin.. enemies of God from the womb! We don't have anything to go by in saying whether or not a specific child went to heaven or hell.. we judge by fruit! That's all we have to go by. Babies and mentally incapable people can't bear that fruit so we can't tell. HOWEVER... we know that God has already elected who he will. as in the case with esau and jacob, he already knew the one he elected... so had those children died in the womb or as infants.. i believe God would have recieved the one and rejected the other. But this is about the only case where we know the mind of God on this.. and it clearly says.. "one was a vessel of wrath, the other was elect". so.. i think the decision is up to God and we should stop there. if the children are born.. we as Christian parents should do our DARNDEST to preach them the gospel and get them to a point that conversion is evident in there lives.

That's where my wife and i have settled.... anyone think we're crazy? lets discuss!

btate0121 wrote:

this is the problem you adamic baby lovers will fall into every time. the age of accountability. LOL! I say it plenty. I don't think it's our place to read things in.. the scripture NEVER EVER.. not remotely or indirectly, refers to any such teaching as the age of accountability.

Looking at romans 9.. God clearly says "one i hated.. one i loved..".. essentially.. one i elected.. the other i did not. where do you think the one he hated would have ended up had he not made it?

I think the best thing to say about this is "It's in God's hands". The Bible teaches that we're BORN into sin.. enemies of God from the womb! We don't have anything to go by in saying whether or not a specific child went to heaven or hell.. we judge by fruit! That's all we have to go by. Babies and mentally incapable people can't bear that fruit so we can't tell. HOWEVER... we know that God has already elected who he will. as in the case with esau and jacob, he already knew the one he elected... so had those children died in the womb or as infants.. i believe God would have recieved the one and rejected the other. But this is about the only case where we know the mind of God on this.. and it clearly says.. "one was a vessel of wrath, the other was elect". so.. i think the decision is up to God and we should stop there. if the children are born.. we as Christian parents should do our DARNDEST to preach them the gospel and get them to a point that conversion is evident in there lives.

That's where my wife and i have settled.... anyone think we're crazy? lets discuss!

so does that make you ...
supra or sub lapsarian ?

careful with that Romans 9 passage... cuz the context of it was hundreds of years after both Jacob & Esau lived... that was more a description of the lives they lived and the generations that followed... i.e. Jacob's descendants became Israel (God's chosen ppl)... while Esau's became a bunch of pagan worshiping heathens

lj.

LOL@ seth


HUH?!?

@ LaRosa

aiiight.. but remember that the context paul gave it was suggesting that God decided these things BEFORE THEY WERE BORN.. and he even went on to actually say that it wasn't based on any good works, or anything he saw in there future. God simply elected the one he wanted and he also happened to ordain that the line would continue. The context Paul used the example of the two spoke SPECIFICALLY to election without any of the deciding factor being anything either of the two babies would do in the future. ("so that God's purpose of election might stand"... "not being based on any good works, but solely based on God's grace"). it had nothing to do with the lives they led.. God himself decided who he would elect and "unelect" i guess. I don't see it at all describing "the lives they lived". again.. he was refering to the two as babies in the womb. the reason Jacob's line continued the way it did is because God ordained it to be so.. not because Jacob was special at all, and definitely not because God flipped ahead in the history books to see if Jacob would be a good guy or not. if i recall.. he wasn't good anyway. LOL. it was strictly based on God's election.. which is my point.

Esau and Jacob both lived beyond childhood.

I think it's interesting that God refers to sacrificed children as "innocent" in Jer. 22.

i agree.. very interesting. You brought that up at the DOG conference this past weekend and i have been thinking about it.. but it strikes me as one of those cases where you interpret the unclear in light of the clear.

Let me add.. that i'm NOT saying that all babies go to hell. I'm saying that's it's POSSIBLE that SOME do.. but ultimately.. we can never know, so "it's in God's hand's".

so how do we reconcile the passage that says "the innocents" in jeremiah with what we see the Bible clearly teaching that we all born with an adamic nature.. and are enemies with God from birth?

we can pick vague comments that pass by "all children go to heaven" (jobs comment about his children, David's comments about his children, the passage in Jeremiah that refers to the children as innocents). but i think people really show their beliefs when we write books on how to raise children, when we discuss our kids as being "wicked and evil". how does total depravity NOT cover children? we all hear the example "you don't have to teach kids how to lie".. we see from their own lives and actions that they are NOT demonstrating fruits of the spirit...

but when it comes to this we say "it's not fair that God would send little babies to hell!"

under that same argument it wasn't fair to raise pharouhe up to be a vessel of wrath.

here's what i want to know

what scripture teaches us that there is a transition from "innocent little kiddies" into vile rebellious adults?

none...

what scripture teaches us that kids. really are not under the curse of sin?

how can we witness to other adults and say "hey.. are you a good person?" and when they say YES we respond with "nope.. but Bible says NONE seek after God"... and say..well. that obviously doesn't apply to kids...

see the greek word for NONE in this sentence is "nonebutchildrenogolopogous" which is translated "none but the kiddies". so he was refering to all but the kiddies. LOL.

i had to throw in some sarcasm there. sorry. My point is... do we believe what we're telling people the Bible says or not? we can't condemn all of the adults in society on a scripture that teaches that we're all wicked.. and bend the text to exclude children.

so.. my position is...

"It's up to God". he purposes his elect from eternity past... if his elect includes all kids.. GREAT.. but we can't know.. scripture doesn't show us this clearly... maybe i'm wrong. *shrug*

I see myself and chaff before God. i am literally nothing special. if we as adults can say that about ourselves.. why do the rules change with children? children are just as sinful and rebellious as we are as adults. they are JUST as worthless before God. so the thinking that "well.. kids MUST have a special place in the heart of God".. well.. i think they take up the same space that the rest of humanity does. clay pots. he can smash whichever ones he wants..

He IS SOVEREIGN GOD and can and will do with His creation whatever He chooses... and if he chooses to smash me or my little one... it hurts me.. but Glory be to God!

I am nothing.

Here's a question to ponder...

Do babies willfully, consciously sin? At the point of infancy, is there any real understanding of right and wrong, God's judgment against sin?

I recommend a short book called "The Five Dilemmas of Calvinism" by Craig Brown. It's published under Ligonier Ministries. Both he and RC Sproul hold the position that babies go to heaven.

If you can't buy it right now, perhaps I can post an excerpt.

If babies go to hell, how will they fare at the judgment seat of Christ? Will they face that Great White Throne?

While we don't see a passage that says all babies go to heaven, we also don't have any examples of children being in hell. When Pharaoh's son was killed, it doesn't mention what happened to him. However, we know what did happen to David's son.

Looking at Jesus' special care for the children in His earthly ministry, and seeing other passages that speak of children as innocents, I'd find it hard to believe that He would have been so kind to them while He was here on earth, just to send one of them to hell if they died the day after they saw Jesus. When Jesus spoke of wickedness that deserved condemnation, he wasn't very "nice" to folks. He spoke in clear and certain terms. If children were in danger of hell, He should have preached to them as well. Don't you think He would have?

VERY interesting points mike.... but think about what they're promoting.. that means the children of SINNERS are also entitled to heaven. ok.. sure.. that's not SO hard to accept.. here's a hard one for you.

There are people all over the world that live in tribes in forests and mountains etc that have NO contact with chrstians and are NOT recieving the gospel. everyday some of them die... i don't think either you or me would make a case that those people go to heaven because God couldn't POSSIBLY hold them accountable for sins they had NO IDEA they were committing right? we would probably argue the opposite. We'd argue that they would still be accountable for their sin.. that's unfair by your standards and shouldn't be allowed...

but isn't this the same argument you're making for children though?

i'm not saying that they do NOT go to heaven because of this.. i'm just saying that "I didn't know" doesn't equal automatic pardon. no scripture teaches it. I love sproul.. but there are more than a few things we don't agree on (infant baptism?!? HUH?) LOL.

EDIT:

Also.. GREAT point about pharouhs son.. no we're NOT told what happened to him.. but we can CERTAINLY draw conclusions. you mentioned the passage in jeremiah calling the sacrificed children innocents... so following your logic.. God himself would also be guilty of killing "innocents" if we make the argument that all children are indeed "innocent". we can argue "well. the egyptian kiddies were sons evil people".. ok.. but what about the flood? God flooded the earth.. we'd be kind of silly to believe that there were no "babies on board" at the time of the flood right? how about when Pharoghe and Ceasar killed the little boys in egypt (the story of moses) and in the providences around Bethlehem (the birth story of Jesus).... guess what.. God ALLOWED those things.. why? he is SOVEREIGN. by your argument.. I can extend that to say "kids shouldn't die AT ALL to begin with because God has a special place for kids.. and bad things don't happen to kids".

Jesus was kind to kiddies. absolutely! he was also kind to sinners! he died for our SINS!!! he was kind to the desciples, he was kind to the adulterous woman, he was BEYOND kind when raising lazerus from the dead! He was kind when he hooked up the wine at the marriage ceremony! Jesus did all KINDS of nice things! I can't see that being an argument for explicit kindness on a class of people other than "those he elected!". all else are vessels of wrath.. right? but you do bring up some very good questions and points to ponder.

EDIT revisited: i need to learn how to spell pharouh...(sp?)

Maybe you're misunderstanding my point. While people in boingo boingo may never hear the gospel, the laws of God are written upon their hearts and the conscience bears witness.

I think it's also not good for us to assume that people not hearing the gospel in the world is the norm. The Church has had 2000 years of evangelism and countless Christian missionaries and martyrs for the faith have given their lives in the remotest parts of the earth. Their blood still cries out. Remember that God says He has people in every place in the world. He's got believers everywhere.

I was watching this one show on TV that dealt with the day to day life of some tribal people. They were presented the gospel but preferred their way of living. Most people would think these people were "unreached" by their location in the world and the way they lived. They were reached, but they just rejected it for the most part. There were some who believed and left the tribe, but not most.

My view doesn't make God a killer of innocents. Actually, it would be very gracious of God to take babies who might have grown up into various sinful lifestyles and false religions. How gracious would it be for God to save children from Hinduism, Islam and other false religions?

One last thing to remember is that salvation is solely by grace. It's not based upon man's decision. Yeah, these kiddies may not have grown up to either reject or accept the gospel, but that doesn't negate God's grace in rescuing babies.

I think we'd agree that life begins in the womb, correct? What about miscarried babies? Do you think miscarried babies are punished in hell? What about aborted babies? Will God say to them, "Sorry little ones, but Adam is your representative and you must burn in hell forever"?

Whether God saves all babies, or just children of the elect, or just elect children, I don't think it's wise to say that babies are punished for their personal sins. There is no willful disobedience with them.

Good points.. but I think my arguments still stand.. but at this point rather than going back and forth for the sake of going back and forth I\'ll stop here. This was fun! I really enjoyed this! I think there\'s plenty here for cats to read and make up there own minds.. in the end it\'s non essential and not up to us.. it\'s as I said \"in God\'s hands\"! *wink*

btate0121 wrote:

Good points.. but I think my arguments still stand.. but at this point rather than going back and forth for the sake of going back and forth I'll stop here. This was fun! I really enjoyed this! I think there's plenty here for cats to read and make up there own minds.. in the end it's non essential and not up to us.. it's as I said "in God's hands"! *wink*

Yurp! I still recommend that book.

And I think your avatar is wack! LOL


Also, I need a link to your music, man! Did you get rid of your soundclick page?

i\'ll make one quick rebuttle, as for aborted kids and all that..

I agree.. life starts at CONCEPTION.. in the womb. the default verdict is GUILTY or innocent according to scripture? you\'re argument by passes scripture and \"born into sin\". Naaa.. i don\'t think fetuses or aborted babies burn in hizzle..... unless God saw fit for that to happen to them.. and it\'s on a case by case basis. i think \"all babies go to heaven\" is unscriptural.. and the same for \"all babies go to hell\". It\'s in God\'s hands. he decides.. so that being said.. he may decide \"all babies to go heaven\". in that case.. let God be TRUE and every man a liar (including me). so what... i was wrong.. big whoop. LOL. but i don\'t see a Biblical case for stating that all kids are innocent.. when EVERY SINGLE BOOK on the shelves that teaches christian parents to raise kids tells parents \"show your children what sin is.. point them to the cross!!!\"

sooooo... what about kids who sin? i guess they\'re sin is automatically purged? and what of God\'s holiness.. i guess kids sin is cryptonite to his holiness and nullifies it\'s destructive effects on sinners? Kids sin.. therefore they are sinners.. wait.... kids are sinners.. therefore they sin.. right? or wrong? what does the Bible say about all men (and women, and children?).. we\'re all sinners.

how about this.. there was a way of the master episode where todd played a clip of a little boy (about 7 or 8 i think) who stole his grannies car.. and the kid was quoted as \"it\'s fun to do bad things\". i guess God is just like... \"awwwwww.. that\'s cute... no hell for you lil guy! we\'re good!\".

you have to keep lowering your argument.. \"well.. that 8 year old dude is at the age of accountability!!!\"

what AGE of accountability? what age is that? i\'ve heard peeps argue it\'s around 12 or 15... so what about the sin committed before those times?

your argument folded in on itself. you admitted that all people are born INTO SIN.. regardless of age.. whether they commit them conciously or not.. they are sinners.

the defacto status of each person... is that we start in sin... then are regenerated and given Christ\'s righteousness.

your argument proposes 3 stages... innocent sinner (which falls down under scrutiny), to sinner, to regeneration.

are they sinners or not?


ok.. that was longer than i had orginally intended.. i guess i\'m not done. LOL


as for my soundclick jawn. I took it down. I'm workin out some stuff. God grew me and convicted me of somethings.. so i'm starting over.. music will be back soon. but in the meantime i can send you a zip file if you shoot me your email addy bro!

Did you see that the mp3's are up from the DOG conference? i missed a portion of irrisistable grace... so thats a reaaal good look.

I don't argue for an AGE of accountability. I thought that was clear in my earlier posts. I believe there is a level of accountability, but I think that can differ. But, that's just my view.

Saying that my argument folded in on itself is not true, since it appears you aren't clear, or I haven't been as clear someway about just what I'm saying. Perhaps this is better suited for a phone call/in person discussion.

I agree in teaching kids about their sin/the cross/Jesus. Absolutely. But, I'm talking about babies/infants/newborns. Can you imagine having a child, loving it, thanking God for it (him or her sounds better) and then they die a day after birth? Can you imagine the tremendous pain of thinking one day that you have this "bundle of joy," a blessing of God, and now this baby is in hell? I'm arguing for babies, not children with rational minds who willfully disobey.

email: byhisgraceiam@yahoo.com

But, of course! Dopeness! Already sent the link to some friends.