Theistic Evolution??

Yo, what up fam.. we are having this "discussion" on another forum about earth's age... here is the first post:

Quote:
Was the world created in 6 days as we know it? Is planet earth only 6000 years old? These are heavy questions with heavy answers.

Many will disagree with what I am about to say but that's what general talk is for.

In the Original Hebrew of Genisis, the word "day" or "Yom" means peroid of time. When you look "days" in that context everything changes, six "days" could have been six months or six million years.

The ancient Sumarians and Egyptians were around and functioning as a society over 20,000 years ago. The pyramids at Giza, Sphinx, and other ancient artifacts are older than 10,000 years.

These are just a couple of reasons the six day and six thousand year theory has problems.

I'm Curious to know what the masses think. Blessings
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Here's my first reply:
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Quote:
Let's suppose earth was created in 6 months.. so, in Genesis 1:

"3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was EVENING, and there was MORNING—the FIRST DAY."

How can you explain: "..And there was EVENING, and there was MORNING---the FIRST MONTH"

If, we keep that supposition, then when God created man:

"27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
[...]

31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was EVENING, and there was MORNING—the SIXTH DAY."

You can say: "well the words that were translated as EVENING and MORNING in the original Hebrew means....", ok, I cannot really say what the original words were.. but, lets' keep analizying Scriptures...

If they were months, then, on Exodus 20:

"8 "Remember the Sabbath DAY by keeping it holy. 9 SIX DAYS you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the SEVENTH DAY is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in SIX DAYS the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the SEVENTH DAY. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath DAY and made it holy."

it says DAYS.. you might say "in the original Hebrew they used the same word as in Genesis 1".. and I can not really tell about that word.. but.. if instead of days it is MONTHS.. then, people from the New Testament got the Scriptures wrong (and I mean Pharisees, Saducees, Scribes and EVEN JESUS HIMSELF, ie people that knew the Scriptures even backwards, bro):

On Matthew 12:

"1At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.""
[...]
"11He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.""

And on Luke 13:

"10 On a Sabbath Jesus was teaching in one of the synagogues, 11and a woman was there who had been crippled by a spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not straighten up at all. 12When Jesus saw her, he called her forward and said to her, "Woman, you are set free from your infirmity." 13Then he put his hands on her, and immediately she straightened up and praised God.

14Indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, the synagogue ruler said to the people, "There are SIX DAYS for work. So come and be healed on those days, not on the Sabbath."

15The Lord answered him, "You hypocrites! Doesn't each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or donkey from the stall and lead it out to give it water? 16Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?"
"
I believe, we can conclude that if they had been 6 MONTHS then the Word of God would contradict itself.. and we know that cannot happen, bro!..

You also said:
"The ancient Sumarians and Egyptians were around and functioning as a society over 20,000 years ago. The pyramids at Giza, Sphinx, and other ancient artifacts are older than 10,000 years."

You state this based on what?.. History books?.. carbon 14 tests??.. if so, then what are you going to believe?.. what man says, or what God says in His Word??...
There are people that say that the Bible stories are based on Egyptian Mythology (or something like that).. are you going to believe that??..
I really haven't studied carbon 14 procedure in depth, but what I can tell you is that scientist make A LOT of pressupositions that cannot be proved, the same way Evolution and the Big Bang theory... and I once was this skeptical scientifically minded atheist cat that only believed what science said... for example, when I read about the Big Bang theory (praise God after I got saved) I was AMAZED on how they present true scientifical facts that "confirm" this theory, only thing is those are "big bangs in little scale", when they take it to a LARGE SCALE big bang, they SUPPOSE A LOT of stuff. Like I said, the same thing happens with Evolution.
I've read part of the Origin of Species (written by Charles Darwin), and what he did was to study the features of a lot of animals and plants, and based on them, he came up to some conclusions about animals evolving from other animals... but Darwin himself said that his theory might never be proved...

Now, you gotta be careful, because there are "Christians" that try to "match" the creation on Genesis with Evolution, stating theories like the one you have stated: "Maybe days in Genesis really mean millions of years".. and they even got "biblical proof":
"Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night."

and

2 Peter 3:8
"But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."

And come up with unbiblical teachings...

I hope this helps you my brother...

God bless you

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and here is what another poster wrote:
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Quote:
i have to agree with [THE FIRST POSTER]. there are three theories of creationism (Genesis 1). the first is the young earth theory which means the world was created in 6 days and the earth is 6000 years old. the old earth theory is Yom means period of time. theistic evolution is God set off the Big Bang. As a Christian and a budding scientist myself (I graduated with a Bachelors of Physics last year and I'm starting a Ph.D. in Atmospheric Physics in the fall) I subscribe to the old earth theory. The main luminary that God put in the night sky (the moon) is slowly moving away from our Earth and the gravity between the moon and Earth create tides. as a result our Earth's rotation is slowing down. plus light travels at 186,000 miles per sec (300 million meters per second) and look how far objects in space happen to be. i'll explain more later


What do you think?.. isn't that the same as to say "well, Evolution did happened because God allowed it"?

God bless you

No takers?

wow.. what a coincidence i've been spending a lot of time in Genesis 1 lately.

ok.. let's start with "Yom". Sure.. it means period... that would be fine and dandy to leave open like that if the Bible didn't go on to explicitly explain what a "day" or what that "time period" was... it was dark... and then light. one then the other... not multiple instances of each.. just one of each.. there was darkness, then light... the first DAY.

very important here.

so my only question there would be.... how long were these days?

all the science of the world can try to accurately guess and hypothesize about how old it is... but we have the record from the authority itself... 6 days is what the Bible says. whether the day was 24 hours... 36 hours or what have you... is irrelevant.... it was 6 days.. however many hours it was. LOL.

Let's keep in mind that in those days... there were no clocks or measurement of seconds or minutes... there was night... then morning... that was your measurement of time. God didn't think the detail was important enough to include here.... but let's be clear.. he specifically says "6 days".

there's not ONE Biblical reference of "Noah.. you have 142 hours 15 minutes and 18 seconds to complete the ark!" or "Jesus resurrected 72 hours later...." the finest measurement of time was "day" or "later" as in later that day...

hours and minutes are relevant today because we base work and social schedules around them... but back in those days.. men worked in the fields, ran shops or whatever... when it got dark... it was closing time. no clocks needed. when the sun came up... "welcome to the quik e mart... would you like to buy a squishee".

that's my dos pesos.... ok.. not so Biblically concrete other than "the Bible says... DAYS".... however many minutes you could stuff into ONE DAY back then was it.... sun down to sun up... that's when he did it.


Here's some food for thought... do you think God took the full day to complete the job? or do you think it happened instantly... then he kicked it while the rest of the day passed and enjoyed His marvelous work?

Days have always been 24 hour periods. God made them that way. I believe 12 is a number of perfection in Biblical numerology. 2 12-hour periods constitute a day.

A day certainly wasn't more than what we'd know as a day. Days are days. They were days then and are days now.

I just think it's interesting that throughout all of Scripture, this is really the only place where we have arguments about how long a day is. The same Hebrew word is used throughout the Old Testament for the word "day." Why don't we believe Joshua and the children of Israel walked around Jericho's Wall for thousands of years? Because a day means a day. The only way to read thousands of years into Genesis is to eisegete it into it. It's about having a consistent hermeneutic and/or approach to Scripture. The literal principle is in effect here, too.

God certainly could have spoke everything into existence instantaneously, but we must remember why God took 6 days. It was for an example to the Israelites, in that He worked 6 days and "rested" on the 7 (not that He actually needed rest, for He doesn't tire).

btate0121 wrote:

wow.. what a coincidence i've been spending a lot of time in Genesis 1 lately.

ok.. let's start with "Yom". Sure.. it means period... that would be fine and dandy to leave open like that if the Bible didn't go on to explicitly explain what a "day" or what that "time period" was... it was dark... and then light. one then the other... not multiple instances of each.. just one of each.. there was darkness, then light... the first DAY.

very important here.

so my only question there would be.... how long were these days?

all the science of the world can try to accurately guess and hypothesize about how old it is... but we have the record from the authority itself... 6 days is what the Bible says. whether the day was 24 hours... 36 hours or what have you... is irrelevant.... it was 6 days.. however many hours it was. LOL.

Let's keep in mind that in those days... there were no clocks or measurement of seconds or minutes... there was night... then morning... that was your measurement of time. God didn't think the detail was important enough to include here.... but let's be clear.. he specifically says "6 days".

there's not ONE Biblical reference of "Noah.. you have 142 hours 15 minutes and 18 seconds to complete the ark!" or "Jesus resurrected 72 hours later...." the finest measurement of time was "day" or "later" as in later that day...

hours and minutes are relevant today because we base work and social schedules around them... but back in those days.. men worked in the fields, ran shops or whatever... when it got dark... it was closing time. no clocks needed. when the sun came up... "welcome to the quik e mart... would you like to buy a squishee".

that's my dos pesos.... ok.. not so Biblically concrete other than "the Bible says... DAYS".... however many minutes you could stuff into ONE DAY back then was it.... sun down to sun up... that's when he did it.


Here's some food for thought... do you think God took the full day to complete the job? or do you think it happened instantly... then he kicked it while the rest of the day passed and enjoyed His marvelous work?

*is so proud of brother tate

Expositor wrote:

Days have always been 24 hour periods. God made them that way. I believe 12 is a number of perfection in Biblical numerology. 2 12-hour periods constitute a day.

A day certainly wasn't more than what we'd know as a day. Days are days. They were days then and are days now.

I just think it's interesting that throughout all of Scripture, this is really the only place where we have arguments about how long a day is. The same Hebrew word is used throughout the Old Testament for the word "day." Why don't we believe Joshua and the children of Israel walked around Jericho's Wall for thousands of years? Because a day means a day. The only way to read thousands of years into Genesis is to eisegete it into it. It's about having a consistent hermeneutic and/or approach to Scripture. The literal principle is in effect here, too.

God certainly could have spoke everything into existence instantaneously, but we must remember why God took 6 days. It was for an example to the Israelites, in that He worked 6 days and "rested" on the 7 (not that He actually needed rest, for He doesn't tire).

Good points... but anybody he reads up on me on hcr knows i'm a stickler for not putting stuff in the Bible that isn't there.. hence my hesitation to put the "24 hour" stamp on biblical day. i agree with your view however... but just don't have the biblical backup to promote that as fact. GREAT point on the biblical numerology.. missed 24 being 12 times two... MMMMM... good point indeed!

the comment at the end wasn't a proposal of a fact or different idea... just food for thought. I've been reading from an NIV (no stones please.. waiting on my macarther bible to arrive from amazon soon. LOL). and the wording there says verbatim.... "God said.... it happened... then night and day passed... the first day...." etc. so it was a LITERAL DAY... but the thinking was from the way the verse is organized... and i haven't looked at the hebrew... but it would be possible that it means God said "Let the water seperate from sky and sea" and BOOM... instant happening... and the other 23 hourse 59 minutes and 59 seconds passed normally with everything already done... rather than "the the sky and sea seperate....." and it take the full day for that task to be completed. I wasn't trying to say God did it all on the first day. my bad if it sounded like that's what i was sayin.

just food for thought.. i'm not promoting anything here just wandering what others thought.

btate0121 wrote:

Expositor wrote:

Days have always been 24 hour periods. God made them that way. I believe 12 is a number of perfection in Biblical numerology. 2 12-hour periods constitute a day.

A day certainly wasn't more than what we'd know as a day. Days are days. They were days then and are days now.

I just think it's interesting that throughout all of Scripture, this is really the only place where we have arguments about how long a day is. The same Hebrew word is used throughout the Old Testament for the word "day." Why don't we believe Joshua and the children of Israel walked around Jericho's Wall for thousands of years? Because a day means a day. The only way to read thousands of years into Genesis is to eisegete it into it. It's about having a consistent hermeneutic and/or approach to Scripture. The literal principle is in effect here, too.

God certainly could have spoke everything into existence instantaneously, but we must remember why God took 6 days. It was for an example to the Israelites, in that He worked 6 days and "rested" on the 7 (not that He actually needed rest, for He doesn't tire).

Good points... but anybody he reads up on me on hcr knows i'm a stickler for not putting stuff in the Bible that isn't there.. hence my hesitation to put the "24 hour" stamp on biblical day. i agree with your view however... but just don't have the biblical backup to promote that as fact. GREAT point on the biblical numerology.. missed 24 being 12 times two... MMMMM... good point indeed!

the comment at the end wasn't a proposal of a fact or different idea... just food for thought. I've been reading from an NIV (no stones please.. waiting on my macarther bible to arrive from amazon soon. LOL). and the wording there says verbatim.... "God said.... it happened... then night and day passed... the first day...." etc. so it was a LITERAL DAY... but the thinking was from the way the verse is organized... and i haven't looked at the hebrew... but it would be possible that it means God said "Let the water seperate from sky and sea" and BOOM... instant happening... and the other 23 hourse 59 minutes and 59 seconds passed normally with everything already done... rather than "the the sky and sea seperate....." and it take the full day for that task to be completed. I wasn't trying to say God did it all on the first day. my bad if it sounded like that's what i was sayin.

just food for thought.. i'm not promoting anything here just wandering what others thought.

I hear you dude. How would Jews have understood literal days?

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v22/i4/calvin.asp

Check this out, as well as the many other articles on the site dealing with creationism.

*smile*

for some reason... i feel honored.. is this my first like... debate like discussion with EXPO?!?!

son.. i'm SOOOO not worthy.. i'm nervous and scared.. you know more than me!!!!! LOL..i'm so not worthy yo. LOL...

ok.. ok ok.. lemme stop.


to answer your question.. thats exactly what my point is.. they would have understood "Day"... NOT TO MEAN 24 hours..... o contrare mon frare (sp?!?).... but as darkness... then light.. they didn't have minutes or hours back then...

ok ok.. i made my feeble attempt at a point. so have at me sir!

i'd like to state again.. sir.. i agree with the 24 hour stance....

but nowhere in scripture does it make an explicit statement about how many hours were in that day... my point is.. it's irrelevent.. it was 6 days.

btate0121 wrote:

*smile*

for some reason... i feel honored.. is this my first like... debate like discussion with EXPO?!?!

son.. i'm SOOOO not worthy.. i'm nervous and scared.. you know more than me!!!!! LOL..i'm so not worthy yo. LOL...

ok.. ok ok.. lemme stop.


to answer your question.. thats exactly what my point is.. they would have understood "Day"... NOT TO MEAN 24 hours..... o contrare mon frare (sp?!?).... but as darkness... then light.. they didn't have minutes or hours back then...

ok ok.. i made my feeble attempt at a point. so have at me sir!

i'd like to state again.. sir.. i agree with the 24 hour stance....

but nowhere in scripture does it make an explicit statement about how many hours were in that day... my point is.. it's irrelevent.. it was 6 days.

Ahhhh, but I think the concept of hours was in place. Jesus referred to the day and hour when the Son of Man would return....

And hush about all that unworthiness!!!

Genesis was written during the isrealites 40 year trek in the wilderness. roughly 4000 years before that comment from Jesus. any evidence any earlier?.... say davidic era? abraham? noah? hours? is tht the only reference to hours? good enough! ... but 24 hours?

one more thought. while reading this morning and going through the study notes i came across something ELSE in Genesis 1 that would help. In vs. 20 and 24. When God created both sea, air and land based creatures, He didn't just CREATE them... there was a command built in to "produce after their own kind". So a dinosaur then couldn't evolve into a bird now (scientists need to just get it... they expired... they didn't evolve). If that happened... the scripture would be wrong because the velociraptor wouldn't have produced after its own kind then would it? A LAND based creature... reproducing, shrinking in size, growing feathers, a beak, and wings.... doesn't sound like "after it's OWN KIND" to me at all. And we ALL know scripture is INFALLIBLE.

so even THEISTIC evolution is incompatible with scripture in every way. They say roaches have been around since the begining.... if evolution were true.. and i'm just guessing here... shouldn't scientists be able to find proof that the modern day roach was different than its 6000 year old ancestor? And if they CAN'T find proof that the roach has evolved or changed at ALL in that time... wouldn't that be proof (on top of all the OTHER common sense proof) that evolution is a fairy tale?

And how about this....

the reason scientists believe that on animal my have evolved into ANOTHER animal is because they find small similarities in bone structures. for instance in the case of the raptor... they believe it evolved into a bird because of some similarities in some small bone structure (something about a half moon shaped bone being found in both animals in roughly the same spot i think it was). I'll submit this thought for someone to think about... couldn't that be proof... better yet... doesn't it make a LOT MORE sense that maybe... just perhaps.. the same Person who made the raptor... made the bird... and he just used similar pieces to build them? every animal i know of on the face of this Earth has two eyes.... does that mean we all came from the same source? there are millions of different animals with 4 legs! did they all come from the same source? All of God's creation is similar in some way to another. I say... if we find more similarities.. it's probably because the designer was the same guy... eh?

I drive a Nissan quest.... every now and again.. while i'm driving.. i'll see a minivan that looks JUST LIKE MINE... but wait.. it's NOT a NISSAN?!?!? it's a Mercury something or other. but i looked into it.. cuz i thought it was odd... guess what... same designer.. Nissan (i believe is the original designer) let mercury use their design. and it's not uncommon. the same is tru for for the isuzu rodeo (the '96 anyway.. i drove one in high school). the police cruiser and he crown vic from ford. all the same designer.. just with different labels.