Unity at the Cost of Theology

check out this blog entry i just wrote...

http://blog.trailblazinministries.com/holy-hiphop/unity_at_the_cost_of_theology.php

here's a snippet...

Quote :

My friend Antoine gave me this title for a blog entry a few days ago, but I decided to let it sit for a minute before writing down my corresponding thoughts. The basis for the title came from a discussion we had concerning my involvement with the United Vision Mixtape series. As most of you know, back in 2006, Trailblazin Ministries was asked by La Familia Muzik to be the exclusive host for the mixtape series that debuted in March 2007. Well, allow me a moment to share a bit of a story before moving forward with the topic at hand, as it directly relates.

About a week or so ago, I had received an email from DJ D-Lite (the DJ mixing the series) expressing his concern that I might have an issue with a few of the songs on this year's mixtape, and wanted to look at possibly having multiple sites host the mixtape in case I decided to take issue with it. After a brief email exchange, I was given an unmixed copy of the mixtape and I gave it a listen (why I hadn't been more involved earlier in the process, I don't know, but that's not the point). To my delight, it was a very solid mixtape featuring many of the same faces that had participated in the original. Everything about the songs was solid, except for one. There was one (and only one) song on the mixtape that I had issue with, and it was a show stopper for me. It was a track that was laced in "me-ism," prideful boasting, among other things. Without giving all of the details, I let the powers that be know that I was unwilling to host volume two of the mixtape with that track in place. So, instead of removing the track, since they had already confirmed with the artist that his track was accepted, they kept it in place, even though they noted that they didn't exactly agree with the song. Since it's a project about unity, they didn't feel right removing an artist they'd already said would be on. With that, we peacefully & respectfully agreed that it would be best hosted elsewhere, thus why you will not find United Vision Mixtape Volume 2 on our site.

On with the topic at hand...

lj.

Brother Larosa ... I'm encouraged by your stance.
Thank you.

[insert "mad early 90's-ish"] Word up, G. [/mad early 90's-ish]

John Calvin had a similar letter

http://www.godrules.net/library/calvin/142calvin_c6.htm

Quote :

“Specious indeed is the name of Peace,” says Hilary, “and fair the idea of Unity; but who doubts that the only Peace of the church is that which is of Christ?” — truly an admirable sentiment which ought to arise in our mind whenever we treat of establishing peace and concord among Christians, and especially when the object sought is consent in doctrine.

For as pious and moderate men are averse to dissension and detest contention and strife, it can scarcely happen that any discourse whatever which proposes to quell them shall not he plausible at first sight. And who, if not devoid of humanity, does not willingly lend his ear and his mind when true and serious mention is made of pacifying the church?

There is no man possessed only of a moderate sense of piety whom this foul and dreadful rending of the body of Christ does not grieve and excruciate. But seeing that crafty men not unfrequently insinuate themselves under this pretext, while they seek to adulterate the pure doctrine of Christ, who can deny that it is the part of prudence to look cautiously at the kind of Peace which is offered us? For as Christ always recommends peace to us as a primary object, so he teaches that the truth of his Gospel is the only bond of peace. Wherefore, it is of no use for those who are trying to seduce us from the pure profession of the Gospel, to gloss it over with the name of Concord. What then? Peace is indeed to be longed for and sought with the utmost zeal; but rather than it should be purchased by any loss of piety, let heaven and earth, if need be, go into confusion!

I am not here debating with Turks and Jews, who would wish the name of Christ utterly extinguished, or with grosser Papists, who demand from us an open abjuration of true doctrine, but with the contrivers of a kind of specious pacification, who leave us a half Christ, but in such a manner that there is no part of his doctrine which they do not obscure or bespatter with some stain of falsehood. And this artifice for deforming piety they send forth — so help them! — under the name of reformation! Is it thus that while they secretly lead us away from the Author of peace, they gloss over the matter by vainly promising peace? They shall never succeed so far with their dissimulation as to prevent their counsels from being disclosed, They doubtless hope that if the Churches which have embraced the purer doctrine of the gospel once decline and allow themselves to be corrupted in any quarter, it will be easy to make them forthwith lose whatever good remains. And, verily, they are not wrong in this opinion.

For by the most just and the ordinary judgment of God, those who knowingly and willingly allow his sacred truth to be polluted with lies, are totally deprived of the valuable possession. For it is not a thing of such vulgar worth, that what is deemed most precious among men should be purchased at the cost of impairing it in the least. I am aware, indeed, that the impious and profane do not form their estimate of the future according to the judgment of God. But without knowing the cause, they judge rightly of the event.

What's Good Brethren

Interesting subject....

I am finding it exceedingly hard to live in unity with some of my brothers when there is such a theological divide. I do however think it is important for Christians to be able to talk and get along but... Can there be unity at all levels if there is such disagreement in theology?

Living in NY I find it to be completely saturated with Word of Faith teaching .... I have met many sweet Christians whom I love dearly but it seems when we talk about the Lord and the bible or spiritual things.... Its almost as if we are talking about two totally different gods. The goal for me is to lovingly talk and reason with the brethren without getting into a puffed up arrogant attitude that I too often find to be the motive of my heart.

This reminds me of a scripture in ephesians ... *runs to look it up* aaah here it is...

4:2: with all lowliness and humility, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love;

4:3: being eager to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

My prayer specifically is to bear with my siblings in the faith in love... tenderly and non-self-righteously talk with them on areas of doctrinal disagreement in hopes of pleasing Christ with my actions

To God be all the Glory

Would it be inappropriate for me to promote track 4 off of
<------THIS ALBUM?!?!?

B. Morr wrote:

Would it be inappropriate for me to promote track 4 off of
<------THIS ALBUM?!?!?

Yes, it would. Should have promoted it when it was released. Too late now. Please go to the repentance corner.

God bless you.

elboogee wrote:

What's Good Brethren

Interesting subject....

I am finding it exceedingly hard to live in unity with some of my brothers when there is such a theological divide. I do however think it is important for Christians to be able to talk and get along but... Can there be unity at all levels if there is such disagreement in theology?

Living in NY I find it to be completely saturated with Word of Faith teaching .... I have met many sweet Christians whom I love dearly but it seems when we talk about the Lord and the bible or spiritual things.... Its almost as if we are talking about two totally different gods. The goal for me is to lovingly talk and reason with the brethren without getting into a puffed up arrogant attitude that I too often find to be the motive of my heart.

This reminds me of a scripture in ephesians ... *runs to look it up* aaah here it is...

4:2: with all lowliness and humility, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love;

4:3: being eager to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

My prayer specifically is to bear with my siblings in the faith in love... tenderly and non-self-righteously talk with them on areas of doctrinal disagreement in hopes of pleasing Christ with my actions

To God be all the Glory

Peep my signature, sis.

While right theology is an important, even critical, aspect of Christianity, it is not the greatest attribute of a Christian. That greatest attribute is love.

I don't know how you feel about Jonathan Edwards, but there is a great work he did called "Charity and Its Fruits"

I'm reading it now, and it's really been challenging me in how I deal with folks, even in disagreement. I recommend that book for every Christian. It's probably the most thorough exposition of 1 Corinthians 13 that's out there.

i can totally relate. as folks from HCR know i was heavily saturated in WOF theology for a few years. just recently i re-examined exactly what i believed, and now my theological stance is more reformed in nature. well my partner who i do alot of ministry with is still heavily embedded to WOF theology. he looks at people such as Benny Hinn, and Creflo dollar as ministers who he wants to be like. rather than letting theology be the cause of us not being friends anymore i have decided to stay connected to him. i believe the lord put us together for a reason we dont debate the non essentials but instead agree on the essentials as brothers and sisters in Christ.

theology dosent make us brothers and sisters in Christ, but the sacrifice he made on the cross for wretched sinners is the standard for us being in Christ. no matter what differences we may have as believers, we shouldnt let it stop us from still being in unity at least in the essentials.

Can't be unity if the essentials are off. So separation over theology is inevitable.

Kerry. GREAT point.. and I agree wholeheartedly.

But (knew you saw that coming right... he he he)


it seems that people don't always agree on how far off WOF teaching is. I've been reading your posts on HCR and there was one i read that pretty much said you believe WOF to be a form of heresy. I don't necessarily agree. I see heresy as something like a non trinitarian view of God, or there is no hell. something like that. From what I've seen (i used to be WOF) the problem with WOF is this.. the want and natural inclination of men to elevate other men.


SULAP YO NAYBAH AND SAY "BEEZY HOW THE HECK DID YOU GET THERE?!?"

HELLO lights... lemme explain. LOL. Pastors in WOF churches normally don't become pastors because they attended a seminary and learned hermeneutics... NORMALLY its because that particular someone is "gifted" with either a great ability to speak or sing (you notice that lots of pastors have excellent singing voices? LOL). It's because other people percieve them as gifted that they are elevated. Men naturally want to uplift other men, because it of course leads to the uplifting of ourselves... so while this is going on... sure... the word is in there SOMEWHERE, but mostly only to the degree that it performs the primary task of uplifting ourselves. "GOD WANTS YOU TO BE BLESSED WITH THAT BUSINESS (so you can pay yo 10% of that business income and we can get a new building that people will drive past and say "wow that church is blessed")... ha... GOD wants you to go to that dealership... and walk around that benz with deacon Brown who plays the trumpet 7 times while he prays so you can name it... ha.. and claaaaaaaaimit (cuz then folks will look at you and say "YOU'RE BLESSED" and you're trained to reply "it's cuz my pastor is blessed and the annointing flows down". )

i don't agree with a LOT of stuff. My wife and I recently had some friends over who still attend our old church which is WOF. so our daughters are running and playing thru the house... we have dinner... we're all chillin.. we put the kiddies to bed and we all sit down and start talkin. we're talkin about like... parenting or something like that and my wife busts out "so... do you guys believe in predesination?.. you know you can't lose your salvation". LOL I love her

that opens the door and we get on predestination, how we CAN'T speak things into existence, and how that's affected a lot of people at that church because they were trying to keep up with the Joneses and getting themselves into houses and cars they can't afford. And my homeys wife straight up asks me... "so.... does that mean that pastor is not saved?"

I honestly believe the man has a heart for God... but he hasn't learned how to properly interpret scripture. They suggested that I meet with him and talk with him about that stuff. I heard some news lately about the church that disturbs me... so i might do that.. yall pray.


but that whole story there was meant to say.. let's not write off ALL wof's as heretics.. they just don't know any better.. now.. there are some that do... and do it their way anyway.. ok.. have at 'em.... but brothers and sisters like the ones that were at my house... they just don't know. they had NO IDEA what romans says about God concerning Jacob and Esau... how he loved one and not the other BEFORE birth... how he continues and says "so... do we say "that's not fair!" WRONG... We're God's PROPERTY.. he can do what he wants with us... be it vessel of destruction... or vessel of mercy".

I'm prayin about the pastor tho. yall keep me lifted. LOL.

I agree.. let's work to help our bros and sisters understand how to properly understand biblical text.. but let's NOT start seperating ourselves... pointing fingers and becoming offensive... that helps no one... doesn't help the reformed.. because we begin to reflect our history "those calvanists are just mean and they're always pickin on everybody... boooooo". A lesson I've been learning... and am practing in application.. is LOVE.. before all things.. LOVE. Jesus was a Jew.. the woman at the well was a SAMARITAN.. they walked teh opposite sides of the road from each other people. Jews and Sammies were NOT the best of friends.. but Jesus took the time to help her and minister to her. I agree.. let's NOT compromise the gospel to please men.. but let's also not compromise the Gospel to offend men unnecessarily. It's not necessary to ostercize a community of church goers cuz they "don't do it the right way". why not.. IN LOVE.. teach them the right way.. the Bible says "he that has an ear... let them hear". So teach them... whoever listens... then PRAISE GOD! and whoever doesn't listen... STILL PRAISE GOD! cuz he's glorified anyway and the Gospel was given.

James 3:1

lj.

Jewel wrote:

The repentance corner!!?!?!?! That's hilarious!!!!

yap, yap, yap, yap....

btate0121 wrote:

Kerry. GREAT point.. and I agree wholeheartedly.

But (knew you saw that coming right... he he he)


it seems that people don't always agree on how far off WOF teaching is. I've been reading your posts on HCR and there was one i read that pretty much said you believe WOF to be a form of heresy. I don't necessarily agree. I see heresy as something like a non trinitarian view of God, or there is no hell. something like that. From what I've seen (i used to be WOF) the problem with WOF is this.. the want and natural inclination of men to elevate other men.

Sup Brian!

There's gradations in WoF theology among teachers. The 'first generation' (Rev. Ike, Copeland, Hagin, Price, Hinn and others that were well established with visible ministries from the 1970's up to 1988-92) were a lot more orthodox than most of the 'new generation' (Jakes, Meyer, etc....). 1st Gen. was all Trinitarian (even with Benny Hinn's "there's nine of em'" comment back in the first edition of Good Morning, Holy Spirit - he said that each member of the Trinity was a triune being with their own body soul and spirit).

So depending on WHO you're listening to, you could end up from mildly aberrant teaching to things like "Jesus was tortured in hell for three days by demons" (Meyer and Hinn have taught this explicity, as has Copeland) which blaspheme the atonement.

Copeland has taught that God has a body and a handspan of a certain amount, etc....

There's the 'little gods' thing they all teach....

There's Dollar and his modalism in one sentence, then adoptionism in another sentence (both are ancient heresies).

The common thread here ? Most of the 'big names' are all inconsistent in many areas of important theological issues. That's why you can get Hinn making false prophecies galore from 88 to 2000, then have him 'repent' of WoF teaching 2-3 times in that same gap of time, call his own comments stupid and then go back to teaching them. You can also get Dollar denying Jesus is God in one sermon then affirming it on his website, then denying the Trinity in one broadcast, then affirming it in another broadcast.

The inconsistency speaks volumes about the origins of these teachings. There is no desire to hold solidly to biblical truth other than our words have creative power and God wants to bless all of His children in every area of their lives with prosperity. Those who keep holding to this imaginary doting grandfather who just wants to give all his kids candy will find themselves on the business end of Matthew 7:21-23.

True believers in the faith persevere...in the faith. Every true believer stuck in a WoF church may be there and may even believe certain doctrines, but they'll believe them inconsistently along with real biblical truth. When pushed, every true believer admits that if God didn't seek them, they wouldn't have sought Him. They admit that only God keeps them - not their intellect, morals or good works - from falling headlong into hell. And in prayer, they sound more biblical than WoF-ish.

So yeah, it's heresy. It's a departure from the established Christian faith. It's a departure from biblical truth for fantasies and lies. It presents a demoted version of God and an elevated notion of man. When playing with the doctrine of God, the more a person 'demotes' God and makes Him subject to man's will, the more a person runs the risk of simply having an entirely different 'god' than the God of scripture. That's why one of the first things out of my mouth is always the Sovereignty of God. God is God. This is the first and most important lesson to be learned. As my pastor said at FFF - "That's God 101." Get that wrong and forget WHO is in charge, you miss everything. Some versions of WoF, in this respect, are damnable heresy, meaning holding a viewpoint puts someone outside of the faith.

Quote :

Pastors in WOF churches normally don't become pastors because they attended a seminary and learned hermeneutics... NORMALLY its because that particular someone is "gifted" with either a great ability to speak or sing (you notice that lots of pastors have excellent singing voices? LOL). It's because other people percieve them as gifted that they are elevated. Men naturally want to uplift other men, because it of course leads to the uplifting of ourselves... so while this is going on... sure... the word is in there SOMEWHERE, but mostly only to the degree that it performs the primary task of uplifting ourselves.

Hence the warning in James 3:1 that LaRosa cited.

And you have a good wife. Any wife that busts into a convo on predestination is a good wife.

I'll keep your pastor in prayer. I understand fully how your friends were clueless on Romans 9 - it's just NOT taught. I got into an argument with someone over Romans 9 a while back and pointed them to the text..... and prior to me expositing the text, they said something along the lines of "So the calvinist doctrine of predestination basically says that God chooses some to show his mercy on so that it will make Him look more glorious to us in heaven." - mind you - I *did not* explain the text yet. But he read it (Romans 9:19-23) and he did NOT like it.

As such, most people avoid it. Like MacArthur said at T4G in regard to the doctrine of total depravity - there's really not an argument you can biblically bring against it except "I don't like it."

Watch the board in the next few weeks when more Calvinism discussions pop up and some of the new folks jump into them. Watch their tone turn hostile with the quickness when Romans 9 gets brought out.

There *is* a need to separate from those who walk disobediently - that's scripture. That includes false teaching. I'm not going to walk arm in arm - in fact, I *can't* walk arm in arm with someone who constantly blasphemes God with wack theology. I can be patient and try to reason with them, but if they're not open to reasoning from the scriptures, I shake the dust off my feet after a few tries, pray for them and never take it personal.

I have more to say, but with regard to approaching things truthfully and in love - we agree.

Kerry! That response was really encouraging actually! LOL. I agree that WOF teaching is outright WRONG... but my point and intention is to say we can't toss out a whole sect of people as hertics and damned because they attend WOF churches. As far as the TEACHERS go... i agree with all you just said... because i'm POSITIVE people have approached them and called them out on their false teaching... BUT ..there are the ignorant folk (and i mean the politically correct instance of "ignorant".... not dumb.. but just unaware and not trained to discern). Like my friend for instance... scratch that... like ME for instance.. I was RAISED WoF... (by the way... you comment about praying for "my pastor" hinted to me that you may think i still have ties to that church. Just FYI.. no.. i don't go there anymore.. i called teh pastor personally and had the talk with him, I've kinda been ostercized because word has gotten back to some of my old "friends" that I'm calvanist. Heck.. i've even told them myself and passed literature on to them. LOL. but i digress).


I really love these discussion by the way.

Dude... i totally understand what romans 9 will do to cats.. you should have seen me the day it was pointed out to me.... blown man.... really blown. The thing i would impress upon you most is this... while i think it's RIGHT to have an outright disgust for certain theologies and teachers themselves.. we should be careful about how we aproach the masses that follow them. I was brought out of it... from what i understand.. you were too... expo as well.. and it wasn't because people were chasing us around with pitchfork blowin heresy whistles... as a matter of fact.. i was utterly oblivious to the fact that other branches of christianity even had a problem with my theology! talk about IGNORANT right? LOL. it wasnt until i got to HCR i started seeing the "theology divide". I peeped this thing called calvanism... how their views lined up with a lot of the rappers i listened to.... i was shocked at all doctrine i had missed off of CM albums! suddenly things clicked left and right... i started reading more because i was challenged...

i had a moment.. i ilike to describe it as hitting the "reset" button on everything i had been taught.. i totally erased every tradition, doctrine, belief, theological inclination i held on to and said.. "whoa... what does the BIBLE say". (hence my hard stance on not reading anything INTO the Bible ... LOL@expo... i hope i didnt offend you bro.. it's just a dangerous line to cross for me).

but enough about me.... how does all that relate to this?

i AGREE that we should strive to teach GOOD and RIGHT theology and doctrine.. i AGREE... but i DONT think we should cut ourselves off from those that don't believe teh same things we do.

let me clarify... because i'm not saying we should attend JW churches or go bike riding with mormons... what i'm saying is that we can't help them (those that God would use us to help anyway) if we puff up our chests and point fingers.... it needs..it has to.. we were instructed to do it.. in .. LOVE. so.. my mother... who is WOF... i don't call her a heretic... i challenge her to take a look at what she believes.

i was listening to WOTMR earlier... and Todd said something that sums up my stance beautifully.. i really do believe... that there are people (cuz i was one) who truly LOVE GOD... but sit under some really bad teaching.. and God may be using that season in their life to work some things... build some things.. whatever the case may be.... but they may be completely IGNORANT of what the bible REALLY says about certain issues... that frankly.. i think are non essentials. The pastors you named.


Kerry.. you print the picket signs... i'll drive the van and i'll join you on the front lines cuzzo.. the mics need to be severed as STL would say. however... some of the members... and even those pastors... need to be reached out to in love. you can lovingly.. harshly rebuke someone.. it's definitely possible.. but i think that should be reserved for those who have known better and been told before.

at this point i'll end my novel. I talk way to much...er... type.